sherryillk | (no subject)

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Wait a minute, is it okay to say "Oriental" in the UK?

That word has been associated with such negative connotations and has been part of my banned list of words for so long that reading it in a H/D fic was rather jarring.

I personally wouldn't want to be called Oriental. Ever. Or that my family is from the Orient. Ever. (What does that even mean?) Or anything even remotely close to that. But then again, I'm an American and I've found Americans to be more sensitive to these sort of topics. I don't necessarily find that a bad thing since I've always thought it was better to be polite rather than offensive but I know it bugs a lot of other people to have to take the time to change their behavior when they themselves don't think they're doing anything wrong. But I try since I know I would want others try to do the same for me, even if not all of them care.

But it's interesting. It's a bit like the word "quim" from a month back. Americans don't seem to find it offensive (probably because they have no idea what it means) so it gets no reactions from being uttered in a big summer blockbuster movie but would elicit gasps from a British audience. Still, it's rather dissimilar considering the fact that if you explained what "quim" meant to an American, I think most would say it was a bad word. I'm not so sure you would get the same reaction from "Oriental." Maybe, if you explained the history and the connotations the words have, you might get some understanding but from my experience, it's hard to understand and care about something that doesn't deal with you personally.

It's like when I was in high school and this one girl asked not to be called "Hispanic" rather to be known as "Latina." I'm not Hispanic or Latina, I have don't really understand the difference between the two terms other than "Latina/o" seems to be more preferable. It's partly why I've dropped the word "Hispanic" from my vocabulary since then because like I said earlier, it's better to be polite. If one person expressed the opinion that "Hispanic" was an incorrect term, then I doubt they're the only ones. And of course, I've met Latino people who don't care. Just as I'm sure there are Asian people who could care less about the word "Oriental."

So at what point do I make a big deal out of it? Do I tell people not to call me "Oriental"? Surprisingly, it still happens. Mostly with people who are of a certain age, and generally not from a typically liberal state -- the South, Midwest, those sort of places... Do I let it slide even though it does bother me? It's not like it's "chink" after all. Am I being too sensitive? Not sensitive enough? Am I failing my race if I don't think it's all that bad or are my feelings of uneasiness wrong because I'm simply been told to be more and more PC?

I wonder about these kind of things... I wish there was someone out there who can tell me how to be a good Asian. Or a good Asian American. Sometimes I wonder if I'm not just absolutely failing at it.

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When I were a wee bairn, Oriental was the only term used for East Asians and South-East Asians because 'Asian' was already taken for people from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh.

In those days it was purely descriptive and thought to be inoffensive, though not necessarily actually inoffensive, since the thinking was that of the people using the term not the ones having it used to describe them. Since then, it's become a more loaded and difficult term, although it hasn't yet been discarded. It's sort of in that position where Black was for some time in America, where people didn't want to be described as Black, but then they kept running into British and Australian people who were black and who were all 'But mate, it's a great word and African-American takes FOREVER to say!' So many people will just attempt to not have a generic descriptor for people from the East and South-East Asian nations at all and go with 'Oh yeah, so I was out with the lads from IT and they were all taking the piss because I'm a right geezer and they're Chinese, Korean and Laotian, so no one ever chooses me when they come to the department door looking for a tech …'

It's better than the census descriptor of 'Chinese and Other' at least …

But in America, I would make an issue out of it if I were you, because there is no linguistic confusion that makes it understandable. That said, up to you, you're doing a grand job at being you! FWIW, I prefer the US/Australian use of Asian to cover the entire continent, because it simply makes sense!

I had no idea that the word "Asian" used to be only associated with Indians, Pakistani and Bangladesh people (I have no idea what they're called... -_-;;;). It's always meant anyone from the Asia continent for me. The only people I'm not so sure about are the Russians whom I'm not sure would classify themselves as either Asian or European...

Black has always been a bit iffy for me. I'm always hesitant to use it because I always felt that if I used black in conjunction with people from Africa, I end up opening myself to arguments that Asian people could be called yellow or Native Americans red and that's so less accepted. But it seems like black has been reclaimed and more and more I'm hearing from people who prefer to be called black and it's made me very confused because it still feels wrong to me. So I use African-American since I doubt many people would take too much offense at that term. I hope at least.

"Chinese and Other"... As in no "Asian" at all? Are there that many Chinese in Australia and so little every other Asian race? Here it was "Asian and Pacific Islander" for the longest time and it's has become so common that I don't even think about it anymore. I think of myself as Asian. It's never really bothered me that it's such a overreaching general term for all people from Asia but I guess it might to other people... Asian is supposed to be the PC word and now I'm wondering if it's loaded as well... :\

I've confused you by switching between British brain and Australian brain ;-)

'Asian' very much still used for the Subcontinent in Britain, but never has been in Australia, who went the American route of using it for the whole continent, with an emphasis on East Asia and South-East Asia (which is where the majority of Australians of Asian descent come from). So the last census I looked at in the UK had 'Asian' and 'Chinese and other'. In Australia, IIRC, they list all the big nations for immigrants and then have a thing you can fill out if you don't get a box to tick (so China, India, Vietnam, Japan and a few others all get their own boxes, but Bangladesh, Laos and the rest have to be write-ins.)

Pacific Islander is the group that I had to get my head around when I moved here, because I hadn't realised how many distinctive cultures there were and how very different some where, while others were quite similar. New Zealand is the centre of the Pacific Island diaspora, but then Australia gets lots of Kiwis for 5-10 years while they come over for higher-paying jobs before going back to raise kids at home. Never suggest that a Tongan might be a Maori. Islander all the way!

As for Black, it's always been the right word in the countries I've lived in, and my girlfriend who went to the US for a good job eventually left because if one more person called her African American, she was going to disembowel them with her hands. But in the US, there's a different history to the word that makes it more difficult. One day it will all be academic and we'll just refer to people by their names or the quality of their smartphones …

I think that Asian is a pretty decent word, though, it's just geographic, like European. Though having said that, I reckon you are what you think you are. Most of my friends of Chinese descent here are just Australians, and all of my friends whose ancestors came over from the West Indies back home are just British. It's up to you!

*sigh* The problem is that even though I like to think of myself as an American, and there are times where I genuinely forget that I'm Chinese, I'm still not. Maybe if I were further removed instead of being second generation. But no matter how much of my Chinese I've lost (and I've lost a lot), or how much I surround myself with white people (I never lived amongst enough Asian people to have much Asian friends until college), the fact that I'm Chinese just looms over me. So it's always been me as an American first and then Chinese because I'm undeniably not white, and then Asian because Chinese people are Asian.

But, now that I think about it, I don't think Americans have much of an idea of the Asian subcontinent. As in, if you stopped an American on the street in America and asked them which countries are part of the Asian subcontinent, I doubt they would be able to tell you any. I wonder if that's because of the English influence?

Wait, are people from New Zealand Pacific Islanders? I had no idea. I've always lumped them in with Australia... I can't say I've ever made an actual Pacific Islander, but I've always thought they would be the Samoans, Fijians...and that's basically the extent of my knowledge of countries in the Pacific Islands...

Sometimes I wonder if it wouldn't just be easier for us to all just intermarry and interbreed and all be multiracial so everybody is everything so it's so much harder to be so insular. But then I know I'll just lament the loss of our racial identity and our ethnic culture... Here, there are people who very strongly identify as American simply because even though they were Polish or Turkish or whatever, it's all been lost by their generation and all they know is American. Is that supposed to be sad? Or ultimately a good thing? I seriously have no idea.

I really don't like the word oriental but do understand that the UK still uses it. If I heard it from any person from the UK I would be quick to correct them though.

A middle-aged lady in my Canadian Jewish history class 2 years ago was talking about why she decided to take the course during the first class and said she lived in Alberta while growing up and didn't meet a lot of diversity, including 'Oriental people.' And she looked to be about 40. My eyes almost popped out of my head while my prof said "I think most prefer Asian now." Didn't help that I was one of two Asian people in my class and nobody batted an eye.

Yeah, that's pretty typical of my experience too. The only people I've ever met that have used the word Oriental have been in their 40s and up. And I get it less from people who grew up on the West Coast (where I'm from) or the Northeast. I always get the feeling that since no one else understands the offensiveness of certain words to certain groups of people, that if we're a part of that group of people, it's part of our job to get it out there that it's not okay. It's not like they know it's wrong unless we tell them and even if they aren't invested in it, if they get it enough, it has to sink in, right?

.__. I have mixed feelings about words being offensive.

*just looked up quim o.O never heard it before* I have a friend who recently was like, "Don't use the word douche!" Of which I was completely confused. (She also told my other friend not to use the word dick.) So I've been thinking about it a lot, and most cuss (forbidden) words are either sexual (which I see as the remnants of a prudish culture) or, like with chink, racial.

Um, with any thing sexual, I realized that words are only as offensive as you make them, and I don't feel particularly offended by sex, so I just see sexual cuss words as something I use when I'm mad, like emphasis.

Racial cuss words are something else... because they represent a hatred for someone for no reason at all.

That being said, for me, I feel that it's the person using that word that gives that word its offensiveness. People who use oriental to lump all asians together and make stereotypes, that's what's offensive. People who use oriental as an innocent synonym to asian, I don't find it offensive. Oriental wasn't really used in a hateful way, at least that's how I feel.

I am so, so confused over hispanic vs latino, though I have heard this before. ^^; I get a little reverse annoyed when I'm talking about my roommates, who are Mexican - they make Mexican jokes all the time (like my family making Japanese jokes), and so I've picked up on that, and sometimes I'll be talking about my roommates and say they're Mexican. And sometimes people will be like, "Don't say Mexican omg so offensive" and I'm just like..... but they're Mexican, as in, their family is from Mexico and they go there all the time. -__-

The main reason Mexican is offensive is it's used the same way oriental may have been used, to refer to all latinos as dirty, thieving gardeners (or something like that...), and it's garnered all sorts of negative connotations. I'm confused as to hispanic being negative because most of the uneducated, prejudice people I know do use Mexican to refer to latinos. It's like lumping all asians together as Chinese - many of the newer immigrants coming now are from Guatemala and El Salvador, so it's showing how ignorant the prejudice people are. (Hence my defensiveness... but my roommates really are Mexicans... just like people from Japan are Japanese... people from Canada are Canadian... I should be able to refer to them by their country of descent.) Um, if you understand the difference with hispanic, please let me know... o.O

UUMMM I guess what I'm trying ot say is ^^;; it comes down to the feelings behind the word... if you know the fanfic author was just using orient = asian, I'd just let it go. If they seem totally ignorant about asian stereotypes, then it's time to be offended. ^^;;;; Ummmmmmmmm yeah....

The problem is that quim/cunt are different from dick and douche. They're so much more loaded and it's not just sexual. There's a lot of gender politics going on there and I'll always fall on the side of the feminist which is why I would never tolerate that word being used against any of my fellow women.

My problem has always been whether or not to let ignorance slide. I'm moved past thinking people are all racists because they say a certain word because a lot of time they're just ignorant rather than racist. But ignorance can only be an excuse for so long and the way I see it is that it's only allowed so long as we let them stay ignorant. If we enlighten them and they still choose to disregard it, then there's a real problem there.

I've never heard of Mexican being offensive though. It's just a nationality (and I guess a race?)... I grew up with a lot of Mexicans and only very few Latinos who weren't Mexican so maybe it's bit different here.

And I think it's different from Oriental. Oriental is generally used as an adjective, not as a noun (Oriental rug, Oriental countries) and by prescribing it to people, they're diminishing us as people. Plus, it makes very little sense since it's Eurocentric phrase. To them, Asia is to the East (the Orient), but here in the Americas? Not so much since they're to our West. So now you have a demeaning phrase that's also inaccurate. I just don't see the point of it and it bugs me. It'll bug me even if the person is using it unintentionally of its connotations. And if they do know of its connotations and are still using it, then I really wonder about that person and whether or not I can just leave in a huff because suddenly they don't seem worth my time anymore...

Ooh, in other words, cunt/quim are not in the sexual (prude) category, but in the sexist (hateful) one. :/ I had no idea the UK had issues... is it abortion issues like in the US?

Hm, I never know what to do with ignorance. I like to educate people when I get the chance, but in general, the amount of ignorance on so many things is over whelming, so I usually let it slide. When it comes to fanfiction, though, I do often correct authors (not usually about things involving cuss / sexist / racist words - I can't remember a time I've seen them used), usually about cultural things they get wrong or spelling errors or if they have questions or anything. (Not all the time, it depends on what it is and if it seems like an ESL problem.) I have always been grateful when people correct me (usually about lemon-related things ^^;;) ~ it's embarrassing, but like having sauce on your cheek, you're always happier that someone pointed it out to you, then if you found out later on your own. I think you should point it out to this person, and explain it very clearly like you did here.

Maybe "Mexican" is sort of an Orange County thing...? It isn't used as a racial hate word like chink or something, but there's a lot of negative connotations that have become associated with generally calling latinos with the word "Mexicans". It's complicated because, as with my roommates, there's nothing wrong with classifying people from Mexico as Mexicans. :/ I'm never sure how to deal with it, but my roommate makes the most Mexican jokes ^^;;; ......

I didn't know that's how oriental is meant to be used. I was trying to think of when I'd last heard someone use the word oriental.... like, oriental rug seems to refer to a specific pattern of rug...? Like how China cups are referring to a certain type of ceramic (I wonder why it's called China ....). I think that's literally the only modern use of oriental I know. o.O;

Though, if someone is learning English from older literature, they can probably pick up on old ways of saying things. :/ Like in that movie, Blast from the Past, where the main character is like, "Oh hey, colored people!" in a purely innocent way.

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