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I thought all writers welcome concrit... I've always thought it was a reader's duty to offer good comments and not just mindless ones saying how awesome they are (not that I don't leave those as well when I think it truly is awesome in all respects). But I don't want to belittle anyone's contribution so in a way I agree with it. I just wish someone had let me in on it before it became an issue.

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cruel-disorder.livejournal.com

thought all writers welcome concrit
I wish this was true. =(

Unfortunately, a lot of people don't want nor expect concrit. I think it's ridiculous to tell people not to give any or to be hurt/offended by them, but hey, that's the way some writers are. =\ ~~I do it anyway, but I've never been warned before!~~

I hope this doesn't stop you from leaving concrit for other fics =S I'm definitely a fervent supporter of critiquing the writer and leaving behind useful comments other then :D! or DDD: MORE!...>_>;

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I feel like my world shifted on its axis today with that email. I'm also a big fan of concrit and more than the mindless "More" statements. God only knows I've made many of those in my early years in fandom and how ashamed of it I am now.

I just don't see the point in being offended when a review is not a flame. When people make wild and encompassing remarks that offer no basis, I can see an author being offended because obviously a reader doesn't care about your story enough to give you a well-written review. But critiques are not flames and after having my head bitten off by many an author, I've learned the best way to deliver them is with a bit of compliment about what worked and to word things that didn't very diplomatically. Now I'm told this isn't even acceptable. That's basically telling people to either rave or be silent, something I think is detrimental to the writer.

I wrote some fics way back when and I remember how it used to be. It hurt when someone says something bad about your fic but you either take it and use it to move on or you reject it as being baseless and move on. Do they not want to improve? I know I want better written stories but I guess now it's more of a crapshoot because effectively, readers are now taken out of the equation of the writing process.

For me, I think I'm going to refrain from comment as much unless the author specifically states they welcome critiques. Far be it for me to offer advice when it's no longer wanted or needed. I thought I was being helpful and showing my support of the author (I wouldn't even take the time to review a bad story that I didn't think had promise) but I guess it isn't when they didn't want the help in the first place.

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I'm sorry you feel so badly about things. In the past, there has been all sorts of brouhaha about critiques and gift fics which I guess you missed.

Personally, I don't like my fics to be critiqued whether they're gift fics or not unless I specifically ask for it.

Not sure if this analogy will work for you, but here goes - When I dress, I may not always try to look my very best, but I try to make sure things match, I'm dressed appropriately for the weather, etc. Then I go out and present myself to the world, so to speak. If someone says that I look good, that's great. If someone says "Hey, you've got toilet paper stuck to your shoe" I see that as helpful since that's something I didn't intend to happen and is not at all the image I want to project. However... I would see it as rude if someone came up to me and told me that my top was the wrong color for me or that I should consider a jacket that's more fitted or my shoes are ugly. It might be true that a fitted jacket would work better with the outfit, but that still doesn't mean that it's okay for someone passing by to say so.

I might ask a friend or relative if my jacket is unflattering, but that's because I trust their opinion and know that they will couch it in relatively kindly terms because they care about me.

If you think of the mod's admonishment as a critique of your comment, you might get a glimmer of why critiques, even those that aren't especially harsh, can be uncomfortable or upsetting to receive.

Again, I'm sorry that you were so bothered by the situation. I'm a little surprised that it's not posted in the fest's profile page that critiques aren't welcome.

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Was this in the HP fandom? I've only re-entered it on a somewhat lurker level a year ago and I still generally skip all the non-fic posts...

This really does bother me. It feels very wrong and I'm surprised to see this come about... I've been in various fandoms for over a decade online and this is the first time I've been baffled by the fandom mentality. I've always thought that once written pieces of work are up for the public's consumption, they are naturally subjected to review. And as we're taught in school, reviews should be insightful, concise and most of all, delivered neutrally with tact. It's what I would expect whenever I pen something, be it a past fic (very distant past), a blog entry or a paper for school.

It's not even a matter of wanted or not because it to me is natural for the development of your writing abilities. I know I have these blindspots in my writing that would never be corrected unless something points them out and I think that's the same for everyone. And promoting better writing is better for everyone, writers and readers alike. But I'm starting to get that it isn't wanted anymore. I remember when this used to be a problem when it was just leaving flames but I try very hard not to get even close to that level so I've always thought I was covered.

Oh well, fandom changes and we all have to change with it, right? If authors don't want critiques anymore, okay, I'll stop leaving critiques unless it's asked for. *shrugs* I'm not sure what else can be done.

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You're right - the brouhaha about criticizing gift fics was in the HP fandom. I'm not exactly sure when it started, but a few years ago the very first comment made on an excellent gift fic was filled with criticisms. Then there was what I can only describe as 'dog piling' because the majority of the next five or six comments also were critical. And this was truly a good fic. And because it was a gift fic and anonymous, the author couldn't even show up to defend her choices. Posts were made about criticizing gift fics and I think a fandom consensus was reached that it shouldn't be done.

In the hd_worldcup, the opposite fandom consensus was reached. Despite the anonymity of the authors, because it was a competition - critiques were considered to be fine. (As long as they were critiques and not flames.)

Many people ask for critiques. Many people like them. Some love them. Personally, the critiques I prefer are from my betas, who can tell me anything about the fic and that's fine because I'm asking them for advice in order to improve my writing.

If someone e-mailed me a thoughtful critique, telling me things that they've noticed I did that detracted from a story or things I neglected to do that were sorely missed - in other words, something that would actually help improve my writing ability, which as you've said should be the point of critiques, then that would be appreciated.

Unfortunately, the criticisms I've received tend to be opinion based (my version of the characters don't fit their version of the characters), a dislike of part of the plot, (it made them sad, etc. so it shouldn't have happened), or agenda based (they hate a character so why did I write that character as likable or why did I write that 'ship when I should really be writing the 'ship the commenter likes.) In other words, what I've received aren't true critiques, like you've said you write. Consequently, unlike a true critique, they won't help me improve my writing. Is it any wonder that I prefer not to receive them?

And if it ever got to the point where people felt entitled to post criticisms of my stories simply because they were posted publicly on my journal, all of my stories would end up being friends locked or extremely tightly filtered. This isn't a writing class for me. This is just me writing.

But, as I said, a lot of people welcome criticisms of their stories. I'm sure those people appreciate all of your critiques, especially as truly thoughtful and insightful comments are fairly rare.

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Unfortunately, the criticisms I've received tend to be opinion based (my version of the characters don't fit their version of the characters), a dislike of part of the plot, (it made them sad, etc. so it shouldn't have happened), or agenda based (they hate a character so why did I write that character as likable or why did I write that 'ship when I should really be writing the 'ship the commenter likes.) In other words, what I've received aren't true critiques, like you've said you write.

I agree that the above examples are *not* concrit. It would be nice if mods in comms would issue a 'welcome' post (or have a side-bar link to one) for new members that explain what the expectations are in their community for fic. They should explain what the responsibility of the writer is (in terms of filling in the feedback box appropriately) and what is expected of the reader as well. I'd do something like this:

* * *

Writers:

DO fill in the feedback section of your header appropriately. Here are some options you might want to consider:

1. Yes (you may get praise, concrit, or a mix of the two)
2. No (you should get no feedback whatsoever)
3. Tell me you love me (positive feedback only, please, no concrit/reviews)
4. Concrit via private email please (email addy: xxxxx.com)

Readers:

DO provide feedback unless none is requested. Remember that fanfic writers do not get paid for their efforts except in terms of reader feedback.

DO provide feedback only as and if requested by the writer in their story's header segment. Look at this first before posting feedback of any kind.

NEVER flame. Here are some examples and definitions for you to use:

Concrit (constructive criticism) IS:

Constructive (positive)
Specific (examples from the work given that illustrate the point)
Helpful (helps the writer improve their craft)
Tactful (not intentionally hurtful and never malicious)
Focused on grammar (spelling, punctuation, verb tense, etc.)
Focused on characters acting out of character ACCORDING TO CANON (not on personal preference)
Focused on timeline or continuity
Balanced (includes what works as well as what doesn't - encourages the writer to continue!)

Concrit IS NOT:

Vague (unspecified complaints not tied explicitly to the work under discussion)
Opinion-based (based on preferences for character behavior not canon, OTP ships, etc.)
Insulting (concrit should always be helpful - insulting comments never are)

Flames:

Flames are generally what Concrit IS NOT. See the above section to avoid flaming. Flames are NOT allowed in this comm. A first flame will result in a private notice from a mod. Additional flames may result in a ban.

Thank you for reading and adhering to this policy!

* * *

Okay, there's more to this post, but since I've exceeded the limit, I'll continue it in an additional reply below :>

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Part 2 of 2 (part 1 reply should be either directly or somewhere above this one):

Personally the most difficult one for me is when a good writer (has good writing skills and is capable of crafting a compelling story with good characterizations) uses characters or ships or other elements that I don't like. It's easy to avoid poorly written stories, but it's harder not to be able to enjoy well written works because you don't like one or more primary elements purely based on personal preference. I have to sigh, bite my tongue, and just move on when I see something that has Lindsey or Riley or Dawn in it, especially if they're a significant character in the story or shipped with one of the significant characters I love, because it's just not something I'll read, but that's just the way it is BECAUSE:

*Generally writers write what they enjoy, and readers find the writers that are a good fit for them, not the other way around!*

Fanfic readers generally write positive feedback to encourage the writer to continue, and sometimes in the hopes of subtly (and sometimes not so subtly) encouraging the writer to shift a bit toward what they themselves like. The first is acceptable, imo, while the second is questionable at best. It often (though not always) crosses the line from concrit into personal preference. Here's an example of where it MAY NOT cross that line:

'I love your writing! Have you ever considered writing Spangel (or Bangel, or Spuffy, or Splindsey, etc.)? I think you'd be really good at that, and that's something I'd really love to see!'

Now imo that is neither concrit nor flaming, even though it does express a personal preference, because it doesn't touch upon an actual story written. But if there's ever any doubt as to whether a comment crosses the line, I think a reader should just avoid making it on general principle.

As you can tell this is an issue that for me is sensitive but central to fanfic, and I do wish that people would think about it a bit more, both writers and readers, as well as mods, to help their communities be civil, helpful and encouraging of new writers and new works.

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But if there's ever any doubt as to whether a comment crosses the line, I think a reader should just avoid making it on general principle.

I agree. I also agree that communities might want to consider expounding on what is acceptable or unacceptable versus expecting everyone to know unwritten rules. It would not only help the readers, but help the writers, as well. For instance, although my hd_worldcup story was well received, I probably would have thought twice (or thrice) about joining the competition if I'd realized that criticisms might be part of the experience.

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I don't understand how you can have a competition involving written works without critiquing/reviewing going on. How do they determine who 'wins' if they don't do this? Isn't quality part of what is being assessed? It doesn't seem like much of a competition if that element isn't considered. I've never seen that fandom or the event, though, so don't know how they run it.

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It doesn't seem like much of a competition

That's the beauty of it - it isn't much of a competition. It's all a pretext for writing stories with a particular 'ship and everyone who reads that 'ship wins.

There is voting, but that's entirely anonymous and scores for individual stories and categories aren't revealed so there's no 'winning' there, either. Team standings were announced, but that was it. If you're at all interested, the voting is explained here - http://community.livejournal.com/hd_worldcup/618.html.

If it ever became a real competition, I definitely wouldn't participate.

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Mithril! I haven't seen you around in a while! Or so I thought until I checked your LJ because apparently I missed your last two posts. I had been a bit worried about you and I'm glad to see you're okay and still around LJ.

Anyway, I love your idea of having rules for providing feedback! It certainly helps lay down clear guidelines about what is acceptable for whole communities as well as individual authors as well. Part of my problem was that I hadn't realized the comments I had been making could be construed as being too critical of an author so I hadn't exhibited as much tact or caution in writing them. But seeing as my definition of what is acceptable in a comment has now been redefined, I'll be much more aware of it from now on. This whole mess was all my fault to begin with and I'm hopeful I'll come out of it a better person. We all must continually strive to be better, right?

For me, I feel the same way -- if there is an author or story I don't agree with or just isn't working for me, I'll leave as soon as I realize it and move on. I filter out most of the stories with summaries, warnings and pairings that I think won't agree with me so the majority of the stories I read are perfectly fine. When I do hit something that I don't generally like all that much, I try and deal with it the best I can and allow the author to try and lure me to their side. I find that when that actually does happen, it's rather glorious and while I may not be okay with it anywhere else but that one story, it still makes a great impression.

Your Most Favored was actually one of those stories for me. I don't think I'd ever read anything involving Gunn, Illryia and Wesley in sexual situations seperately much less all together at one time (also, I hadn't been a big fan of more than two people having sex) but you certainly got me convinced that it was perfectly natural. And I adore your stories so much that I still go back and reread them every couple of weeks or so. I love moments like those and it truly makes reading fanfics a wonderful experience.

Posted by

ramble-corner.livejournal.com

*ouch pets you

On one hand, I do see where it came from.
If as you said it was a gift fic exchange, well it is a gift.
Even normally if you don't like the gift somebody gave you, you wouldn't said so outright.
There was a similar case before and I think the sum of it was that fics posted on normal fic comm are fair games but fics posted for gift fic exchange is slightly different as the authors is writing for somebody else. Most often they are taking somebody else's prompts and preference, and trying to write for them. In some case, it may be totally different from what they are used to write.
Concrit could still be offered but maybe privately? Some suggests using PM or emails to contact the authors first.

Sad though to hear about your experience? Did the mods approched you privately? It would have probably gone better if they had so they can explain to you directly.

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Oh no, the mod did approach me privately and it wasn't that bad at all. I was more or less horrified that I committed such a faux pas and that critiques aren't allowed anymore. It's such a change from what I was used to and what I thought was right that it jarred me from my comfort zone a bit. I'm so used to thinking any good advice that might help an author being a good thing (better fics from them, better fics for us to read) that I didn't realize that there were some who wouldn't want it at all. I'll be sure to be more careful from now on.

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Feedback?: Yes please
Feedback?: No thanks

It should really not involve any more than that imho. It gives the writer total control and leaves the ambiguity out of the equation. Anyone asking for feedback should realize that feedback means 'tell me what you think', and that means praise, concrit, or a mix of the two. You really can't stop those who intend to flame, so there's no point of attempting that at the writer level. Flamers should be addressed by the mods of other comm members, but not, imo, concrit (at least not if the 'feedback' box is checked 'yes'.). Of course this is just my two cents worth :>

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Okay, I'm going to amend the above to include one other feedback option:

Feedback?: Tell me you love me (puppy dog eyes) :>

I think this is legitimate. You're asking for positive reinforcement, and, to me at least, is fairly clear that you're excluding concrit. I think that's fine. Like Mahaliem said, fanfic writers do what they do for a variety of reasons. Some want concrit, some don't, and again, that is just fine. My point is fairly simple; if writers would think about the 'feedback' section and be honest when they fill in that box, then readers know what's okay and what's not, and if they're civil will respect that request. Again, flamers are just outside the range of civil, and mod or comm intervention is probably needed for that. But if you knew the writer didn't want feedback at all, or at least no concrit/critique/review in particular, then choosing the appropriate option for the feedback segment would have given you all the information you needed to make the right choice and *not* receive a mod scolding.

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